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    <fireside:genDate>Sun, 24 May 2026 22:50:42 -0500</fireside:genDate>
    <generator>Fireside (https://fireside.fm)</generator>
    <title>Increments - Episodes Tagged with “Causality”</title>
    <link>https://www.incrementspodcast.com/tags/causality</link>
    <pubDate>Wed, 20 Jul 2022 18:00:00 -0700</pubDate>
    <description>Vaden Masrani, a senior research scientist in machine learning, and Ben Chugg, a PhD student in statistics, get into trouble arguing about everything except machine learning and statistics. Coherence is somewhere on the horizon. 
Bribes, suggestions, love-mail and hate-mail all welcome at incrementspodcast@gmail.com. 
</description>
    <language>en-us</language>
    <itunes:type>episodic</itunes:type>
    <itunes:subtitle>Science, Philosophy, Epistemology, Mayhem</itunes:subtitle>
    <itunes:author>Ben Chugg and Vaden Masrani</itunes:author>
    <itunes:summary>Vaden Masrani, a senior research scientist in machine learning, and Ben Chugg, a PhD student in statistics, get into trouble arguing about everything except machine learning and statistics. Coherence is somewhere on the horizon. 
Bribes, suggestions, love-mail and hate-mail all welcome at incrementspodcast@gmail.com. 
</itunes:summary>
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    <itunes:keywords>Philosophy,Science,Ethics,Progress,Knowledge,Computer Science,Conversation,Error-Correction</itunes:keywords>
    <itunes:owner>
      <itunes:name>Ben Chugg and Vaden Masrani</itunes:name>
      <itunes:email>incrementspodcast@gmail.com</itunes:email>
    </itunes:owner>
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  <itunes:category text="Philosophy"/>
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  <title>#42 (C&amp;R, Chap 12+13) - Language and the Body-Mind Problem</title>
  <link>https://www.incrementspodcast.com/42</link>
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  <pubDate>Wed, 20 Jul 2022 18:00:00 -0700</pubDate>
  <author>Ben Chugg and Vaden Masrani</author>
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  <itunes:episodeType>full</itunes:episodeType>
  <itunes:author>Ben Chugg and Vaden Masrani</itunes:author>
  <itunes:subtitle>We wrestle with chapter 12 and 13 of Conjectures and Refutations, on the topic of the mind-body problem, theories of language, determinism, and causality. This one is a real doozy folks. </itunes:subtitle>
  <itunes:duration>50:39</itunes:duration>
  <itunes:explicit>no</itunes:explicit>
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  <description>&lt;p&gt;Ben and Vaden sit down to discuss what is possibly Popper's most confusing essay ever: &lt;em&gt;Language and the Body-Mind Problem: A restatement of Interactionism&lt;/em&gt;. Determinism, causality, language, bodies, minds, and Ferris Buhler. What's not to like! Except for the terrible writing, spanning the entire essay. And before we get to that, we revolutionize the peer-review system in less than 10 minutes. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;We discuss&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;ul&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Problems with the current peer-review system and how to improve it &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;The Mind-Body Problem&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;How chaos theory relates to determinism &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;The four functions of language&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Why you don't argue with thermometers &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Whether Popper thinks we can build AGI &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Why causality occurs at the level of ideas, not just of atoms &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ul&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;References&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;ul&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Link to &lt;a href="http://www.ditext.com/popper/lbp.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener"&gt;the essay&lt;/a&gt;, which you should most definitely read for yourself. &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Ben's &lt;a href="https://benchugg.com/writing/peer-review/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener"&gt;call to abolish peer-review&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;
&lt;a href="https://discreteanalysisjournal.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener"&gt;Discrete Analysis Math Journal&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;
&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener"&gt;Pachinko&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;
&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organon_model" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener"&gt;Karl Buhler's theory of language&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ul&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Quotes&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;em&gt;This, I think, solves the so-called problem of 'other minds'. If we talk to other people, and especially if we argue&lt;br&gt;
with them, then we assume (sometimes mistakenly) that they also argue: that they speak intentionally about&lt;br&gt;
things, seriously wishing to solve a problem, and not merely behaving as if they were doing so. It has often been seen&lt;br&gt;
that language is a social affair and that solipsism, and doubts about the existence of other minds, become&lt;br&gt;
selfcontradictory if formulated in a language. We can put this now more clearly. In arguing with other people (a thing&lt;br&gt;
which we have learnt from other people), for example about other minds, we cannot but attribute to them intentions,&lt;br&gt;
and this means, mental states. We do not argue with a thermometer.&lt;/em&gt; &lt;br&gt;
&amp;gt; - C&amp;amp;R, Chap 13&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;em&gt;Once we understand the causal behaviour of the machine, we realize that its behaviour is purely expressive or&lt;br&gt;
symptomatic. For amusement we may continue to ask the machine questions, but we shall not seriously argue with it--&lt;br&gt;
unless we believe that it transmits the arguments, both from a person and back to a person.&lt;/em&gt; &lt;br&gt;
&amp;gt; - C&amp;amp;R, Chap 13&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;  &lt;em&gt;If the behaviour of such a machine becomes very much like that of a man, then we may mistakenly believe that&lt;br&gt;
the machine describes and argues; just as a man"who does not know the working of a phonograph or radio may&lt;br&gt;
mistakenly think that it describes and argues. Yet an analysis of its mechanism teaches us that nothing of this kind&lt;br&gt;
happens. The radio does not argue, although it expresses and signals.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&amp;gt; - C&amp;amp;R, Chap 13&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;  &lt;em&gt;It is true that the presence of Mike in my environment may be one of the physical 'causes' of my saying, 'Here is &lt;br&gt;
Mike'. But if I say, 'Should this be your argument, then it is contradictory', because I have grasped or realized that it is&lt;br&gt;
so, then there was no physical 'cause' analogous to Mike; I do not need to hear or see your words in order to realize&lt;br&gt;
that a certain theory (it does not matter whose) is contradictory. The analogy is not to Mike, but rather to my&lt;br&gt;
realization that Mike is here.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&amp;gt; - C&amp;amp;R, Chap 13&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; &lt;em&gt;The fear of obscurantism (or of being judged an obscurantist) has prevented most anti-obscurantists from saying&lt;br&gt;
such things as these. But this fear has produced, in the end, only obscurantism of another kind.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&amp;gt; - C&amp;amp;R, Chap 13&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;When's the last time you argued with your thermometer? Tell us over at &lt;a href="mailto:incrementspodcast@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener"&gt;incrementspodcast@gmail.com&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Image Credit&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a href="http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/modernlanguages/research/groups/linguistics/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener"&gt;http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/modernlanguages/research/groups/linguistics/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
  <itunes:keywords>mind-body problem, determinism, causality, language, Popper, Karl Buhler</itunes:keywords>
  <content:encoded>
    <![CDATA[<p>Ben and Vaden sit down to discuss what is possibly Popper&#39;s most confusing essay ever: <em>Language and the Body-Mind Problem: A restatement of Interactionism</em>. Determinism, causality, language, bodies, minds, and Ferris Buhler. What&#39;s not to like! Except for the terrible writing, spanning the entire essay. And before we get to that, we revolutionize the peer-review system in less than 10 minutes. </p>

<p><strong>We discuss</strong></p>

<ul>
<li>Problems with the current peer-review system and how to improve it </li>
<li>The Mind-Body Problem</li>
<li>How chaos theory relates to determinism </li>
<li>The four functions of language</li>
<li>Why you don&#39;t argue with thermometers </li>
<li>Whether Popper thinks we can build AGI </li>
<li>Why causality occurs at the level of ideas, not just of atoms </li>
</ul>

<p><strong>References</strong> </p>

<ul>
<li>Link to <a href="http://www.ditext.com/popper/lbp.html" rel="nofollow">the essay</a>, which you should most definitely read for yourself. </li>
<li>Ben&#39;s <a href="https://benchugg.com/writing/peer-review/" rel="nofollow">call to abolish peer-review</a> </li>
<li><a href="https://discreteanalysisjournal.com/" rel="nofollow">Discrete Analysis Math Journal</a> </li>
<li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko" rel="nofollow">Pachinko</a> </li>
<li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organon_model" rel="nofollow">Karl Buhler&#39;s theory of language</a> </li>
</ul>

<p><strong>Quotes</strong> </p>

<blockquote>
<p><em>This, I think, solves the so-called problem of &#39;other minds&#39;. If we talk to other people, and especially if we argue<br>
with them, then we assume (sometimes mistakenly) that they also argue: that they speak intentionally about<br>
things, seriously wishing to solve a problem, and not merely behaving as if they were doing so. It has often been seen<br>
that language is a social affair and that solipsism, and doubts about the existence of other minds, become<br>
selfcontradictory if formulated in a language. We can put this now more clearly. In arguing with other people (a thing<br>
which we have learnt from other people), for example about other minds, we cannot but attribute to them intentions,<br>
and this means, mental states. We do not argue with a thermometer.</em> <br>
- C&amp;R, Chap 13</p>

<p><em>Once we understand the causal behaviour of the machine, we realize that its behaviour is purely expressive or<br>
symptomatic. For amusement we may continue to ask the machine questions, but we shall not seriously argue with it--<br>
unless we believe that it transmits the arguments, both from a person and back to a person.</em> <br>
- C&amp;R, Chap 13</p>

<p><em>If the behaviour of such a machine becomes very much like that of a man, then we may mistakenly believe that<br>
the machine describes and argues; just as a man&quot;who does not know the working of a phonograph or radio may<br>
mistakenly think that it describes and argues. Yet an analysis of its mechanism teaches us that nothing of this kind<br>
happens. The radio does not argue, although it expresses and signals.</em><br>
- C&amp;R, Chap 13</p>

<p><em>It is true that the presence of Mike in my environment may be one of the physical &#39;causes&#39; of my saying, &#39;Here is <br>
Mike&#39;. But if I say, &#39;Should this be your argument, then it is contradictory&#39;, because I have grasped or realized that it is<br>
so, then there was no physical &#39;cause&#39; analogous to Mike; I do not need to hear or see your words in order to realize<br>
that a certain theory (it does not matter whose) is contradictory. The analogy is not to Mike, but rather to my<br>
realization that Mike is here.</em><br>
- C&amp;R, Chap 13</p>

<p><em>The fear of obscurantism (or of being judged an obscurantist) has prevented most anti-obscurantists from saying<br>
such things as these. But this fear has produced, in the end, only obscurantism of another kind.</em><br>
- C&amp;R, Chap 13</p>
</blockquote>

<p>When&#39;s the last time you argued with your thermometer? Tell us over at <a href="mailto:incrementspodcast@gmail.com" rel="nofollow">incrementspodcast@gmail.com</a> </p>

<p><em>Image Credit</em>: <a href="http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/modernlanguages/research/groups/linguistics/" rel="nofollow">http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/modernlanguages/research/groups/linguistics/</a></p><p><a rel="payment" href="https://www.patreon.com/Increments">Support Increments</a></p>]]>
  </content:encoded>
  <itunes:summary>
    <![CDATA[<p>Ben and Vaden sit down to discuss what is possibly Popper&#39;s most confusing essay ever: <em>Language and the Body-Mind Problem: A restatement of Interactionism</em>. Determinism, causality, language, bodies, minds, and Ferris Buhler. What&#39;s not to like! Except for the terrible writing, spanning the entire essay. And before we get to that, we revolutionize the peer-review system in less than 10 minutes. </p>

<p><strong>We discuss</strong></p>

<ul>
<li>Problems with the current peer-review system and how to improve it </li>
<li>The Mind-Body Problem</li>
<li>How chaos theory relates to determinism </li>
<li>The four functions of language</li>
<li>Why you don&#39;t argue with thermometers </li>
<li>Whether Popper thinks we can build AGI </li>
<li>Why causality occurs at the level of ideas, not just of atoms </li>
</ul>

<p><strong>References</strong> </p>

<ul>
<li>Link to <a href="http://www.ditext.com/popper/lbp.html" rel="nofollow">the essay</a>, which you should most definitely read for yourself. </li>
<li>Ben&#39;s <a href="https://benchugg.com/writing/peer-review/" rel="nofollow">call to abolish peer-review</a> </li>
<li><a href="https://discreteanalysisjournal.com/" rel="nofollow">Discrete Analysis Math Journal</a> </li>
<li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko" rel="nofollow">Pachinko</a> </li>
<li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organon_model" rel="nofollow">Karl Buhler&#39;s theory of language</a> </li>
</ul>

<p><strong>Quotes</strong> </p>

<blockquote>
<p><em>This, I think, solves the so-called problem of &#39;other minds&#39;. If we talk to other people, and especially if we argue<br>
with them, then we assume (sometimes mistakenly) that they also argue: that they speak intentionally about<br>
things, seriously wishing to solve a problem, and not merely behaving as if they were doing so. It has often been seen<br>
that language is a social affair and that solipsism, and doubts about the existence of other minds, become<br>
selfcontradictory if formulated in a language. We can put this now more clearly. In arguing with other people (a thing<br>
which we have learnt from other people), for example about other minds, we cannot but attribute to them intentions,<br>
and this means, mental states. We do not argue with a thermometer.</em> <br>
- C&amp;R, Chap 13</p>

<p><em>Once we understand the causal behaviour of the machine, we realize that its behaviour is purely expressive or<br>
symptomatic. For amusement we may continue to ask the machine questions, but we shall not seriously argue with it--<br>
unless we believe that it transmits the arguments, both from a person and back to a person.</em> <br>
- C&amp;R, Chap 13</p>

<p><em>If the behaviour of such a machine becomes very much like that of a man, then we may mistakenly believe that<br>
the machine describes and argues; just as a man&quot;who does not know the working of a phonograph or radio may<br>
mistakenly think that it describes and argues. Yet an analysis of its mechanism teaches us that nothing of this kind<br>
happens. The radio does not argue, although it expresses and signals.</em><br>
- C&amp;R, Chap 13</p>

<p><em>It is true that the presence of Mike in my environment may be one of the physical &#39;causes&#39; of my saying, &#39;Here is <br>
Mike&#39;. But if I say, &#39;Should this be your argument, then it is contradictory&#39;, because I have grasped or realized that it is<br>
so, then there was no physical &#39;cause&#39; analogous to Mike; I do not need to hear or see your words in order to realize<br>
that a certain theory (it does not matter whose) is contradictory. The analogy is not to Mike, but rather to my<br>
realization that Mike is here.</em><br>
- C&amp;R, Chap 13</p>

<p><em>The fear of obscurantism (or of being judged an obscurantist) has prevented most anti-obscurantists from saying<br>
such things as these. But this fear has produced, in the end, only obscurantism of another kind.</em><br>
- C&amp;R, Chap 13</p>
</blockquote>

<p>When&#39;s the last time you argued with your thermometer? Tell us over at <a href="mailto:incrementspodcast@gmail.com" rel="nofollow">incrementspodcast@gmail.com</a> </p>

<p><em>Image Credit</em>: <a href="http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/modernlanguages/research/groups/linguistics/" rel="nofollow">http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/modernlanguages/research/groups/linguistics/</a></p><p><a rel="payment" href="https://www.patreon.com/Increments">Support Increments</a></p>]]>
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